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Separation of Church and State
The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another.
Neither can it force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.
Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between Church and State.~ Hugo Black (1886-02-27 1971-09-25 age:85) Supreme Court Justice, Everson vs Board of Education
Despite this ruling, there have been many violations including faith-based initiatives, teaching of creationism and subsidies to faith-based schools. Black apparently did allow the state to subsidise churches by providing them services such as sewer, water, fire and police without paying taxes.
Separation of Church and State
I’m completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.~ George Carlin (1937-05-12 2008-06-22 age:71)
Imposing State Religion
I believe this notion of separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel’s imagination.~ W. A. Criswell (1909-12-19 2002-01-10 age:92) 1984 Republican convention
Separation of Church and State
Believing with you that religion is a matter that lies solely between man & his god… that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions… Legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.~ Thomas Jefferson (1743-04-13 1826-07-04 age:83), third president of the United States.
Theists ask, What would you as an atheist consider acceptable proof a deity (not necessarily Yahweh) exists? Here are some suggestions:
- Unbiased measurement whether prayer has any statistical effect.
- Statistic proof that natural disasters tend to avoid the homes of Christians while afflicting their neighbours.
- Discovery of some irreducibly complex plant or animal.
- Particle accelerator evidence of capricious intervention.
- Discovery of deep scientific information coded in the bible.
- Jesus returns and performs biblical-style miracles in front of the best magicians. eg. parting the Red Sea.
- Discovery of a titanium plaque engraved with the ten commandments radiometrically dated to 3 billion BC.
Unfortunately for the theists, even with such a piece of killer evidence, they still have to overcome the mountain of evidence that everything Christians said about Yahweh is bunk. Most of this evidence would not apply to Yahweh specifically.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Defending Separation of Church and State
One strategy to deal with Christians trying to destroy separation of church and state is to let them set up their theocracy. Within days, the various denominations will be fighting and killing each other just as they did in the early days of the USA.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
- atheism: does not believe in the existence of any god, including Satan. The term has no implications about morality. An atheist may or may not be opposed to religion. It is analogous to someone who does not collect stamps.
- secularism: concerned with separation of church and state and the rôle of religion in public affairs
- humanism: concerned with ethics, without resorting to religious arguments.
Freedom of Religion
I suggest that freedom of religion should not be absolute. Believers do too much harm to others. Their ability to hurt others needs to be curtailed. I suggest the following not be tolerated in religions anywhere on earth.
- Killing or discriminating against non-believers.
- Killing or discriminating against apostates.
- FGM (Female Genital Mutilation)
- Killing or discriminating against homosexuals.
- Killing or vigilante retaliation for mocking or criticising the religion or its figures.
- Promotion of the end of the earth, e.g. by global nuclear war or ecological degradation.
- Beating or sexually abusing children.
Such religions would not be protected by freedom of religion and separation of church and state. The government should actively suppress them. Hopefully, religions would drop these obnoxious features.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
God Save The Queen
The second verse of God Save The Queen goes like this:
O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!
The song is clearly a prayer, a petition to the Christian god to promote Britain and harm other countries. Imposing its singing on non-Christians violates the principle of separation of church and state.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Good News Clubs
Evangelicals, through some 3800 Good News Clubs, teach elementary public school children to use threats to sell their friends on Christianity. The adults also bribe the kids with sugar treats to obtain compliance. The people putting up most resistance to this violation of separation of church and state are Christians who don’t approve of the quirky style of Christianity the Good News Clubs indoctrinates. For example, they teach that all Catholics go to hell. They even told a little Hispanic kid his little brother was in hell because they attended the wrong church. These people are sick. If I were a parent, I would have the head of anyone feeding my kid candy to commit crimes.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Hindu Mob Lynches Muslim Man for Eating Beef
When I was in India, I ate beef. It never occurred to me my waiter would waltz in with a sword and behead me. We need to explain to religious fundamentalists that separation of church and state is for their protection. The only catch is, they have to forgo forcing their religion on others. They seem to think its only purpose is for atheists to suppress them. They seem to think, since they are right and everyone else is wrong, they have the right to micromanage everyone else’s lives. What infuriating twits! If I were a Christian, I could at least pray these twits to be struck with lightning.
Since every religion has different dietary rules, surely it should be obvious to everyone these are the least important tenets.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
James Madison opposed a national day of prayer, even one with zero budget. Total separation of church and state was the overriding principle.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Modern Day Crusaders
According to the Ralph Benmergui miniseries, God Bless America, the USA in its wars on Iraq and Afghanistan use logos involving the crucifix and heraldry from the Christian crusaders who invaded the middle east in the 1100s and killed everyone who had even known to be a Muslim. So much for separation of church and state.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
The Qur’an calls for murdering apostates and non-believers though Muslims living in North America ignore those commands. The bible calls for murdering all non-believers and everyone else is their village, though all modern Christians ignore this command.
Anyone who subscribes to a religion that actively commands the murder of apostates or non-believers, should have their religion recategorised as a hate cult, and hence without protection of freedom of religion and separation of church and state. The state would then be free to take measures to eliminate the cult.
Would a religion formally repudiate the odious teachings, or would it also have to expunge them from all new copies of their holy books?
You could add murder for obscenity/insulting the religion. You might add non-consensual FGM and eventually non-consensual MGM (Male Genital Mutilation).~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
The Necessity Of Combating Christianity
The fundamental error the Christian makes is fearing an invisible sadistic monster in the sky. From that flows all the other unacceptable things that Christians do. Believing in god is the least objectionable thing Christians do. It is all the bad behaviour they do as a result that is the real problem. This is why we atheists put so much energy into debunking the god delusion and become so angry at Christians for clinging to it.
Why do I refuse to get along with Christians? Why don’t I just leave them alone?
- they kill, persecute and tell lies about gays.
- they tell lies about science, e.g. creationism, biblical literalism.
- they force their horrible music down my throat for three months each year.
- they are usually climate change deniers.
- they voted for Trump.
- they interfere with birth control.
- they torment women who have abortions.
- they torment women who have babies without a religious marriage ceremony.
- they force the elderly to endure long torturous deaths.
- they refuse to accept separation of church and state. They are forever forcing their crap religion down unwilling throats.
We have to talk Christians out of this religion that is making them behave so badly.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
No Government Promotion of Religion
Even if bull-fighting were legal in Canada, I doubt a government would build bull-fighting rings. They would not spend money on facilities the majority consider improper. Almost no one wants religions other than their own promoted. For that reason alone, separation of church and state aside, governments should not be building churches or religious schools. The British government builds segregated religious schools to the detriment of the entire country by promoting intolerance, superstition and ignorance of other religions. It is a backward in that respect maintaining an official state religion and conflating the head of state with the head of the state religion.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Poverty Creates Religion
In general, the poorer a country is, the stronger its belief in a god. The hollow reassurances of religion help people deal with the uncertainties of life in a poor country. The odd exception in the USA which has both very high belief and high wealth. Oddly, the historic separation of church and state may be responsible. It fosters extreme competition between religions, which strengthens religion generally, as does any Darwinian competition.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70) source
Purpose of Separation Of Church and State
Separation of church and state is a temporary quarantine measure, an expedient truce, to deal with an epidemic of mental illness.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Refusal To Acknowledge the Benefits of Separation of Church and State
The founding fathers of the USA had watched the horrible religious wars in Britain and Europe. So to avoid such strife in the USA they made in very clear there would be no official religion. No religion was going to use the power of the state to lord it over anyone else. Christians refuse to acknowledge the benefit of peace this brings.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Refusing Freedom of Religion
If you have any doubts that many American Christians do not respect separation of Church and State, do not respect religious freedom for others, or that they believe that as a majority they have the right to force Christianity on others watch this video: In God We Trust These assholes need to be stopped.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
If you want to promote your religion there are basically two strategies:
- theocracy (winner take all).
- separation of church and state (Others cannot impose their religion on you and in return you cannot impose your religion on them).
If you are the biggest religion, theocracy looks best. There are two catches.
- Things might change and then others can even outlaw your religion and force you to accept some other.
- The other catch is the strife gets so vigorous it leads to murder and war. That is why the founding fathers decided separation of church and state was the best approach to a religious plurality like the USA to ensure religious peace.
Consider the advantage of separation of church and state in the future. The Mormons and Muslims are growing considerably faster than anyone else. What happens if they grow to become the majority? What happens to you without the protection of separation of church and state. They will give their religion special privilege. They will insist on their religions being honoured on state occasions. They will insist on their religious myths being taught as science in schools. They will treat your religion with contempt as if it were some fringe cult.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Separation of Church and State
Christians don’t seem to understand that separation of church and state was designed as a truce to keep religions from killing each other. There were no atheists at the time. Christians think only of how separation of church and state blocks them from imposing their religion on others (something they believe to be a god given right because they are right and everyone else is wrong). They think they have a right to make others publicly pray to their god. They think they have a right to teach their religious myths as actual science in public schools. They forget how separation of church and state protects them from other religions and sects, a far more important freedom.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Separation of Church and State
Europeans were at each others’ throats over religion for centuries before the USA was founded. The founding fathers saw the same sort of crap happening in the USA and decided drastic action was needed to force a truce on all religions and sects. They put it in the constitution’s first amendment that the government could not favour any one religion or sect, nor hurt any one religion or sect. Everyone gets freedom of religion. Basically, if you don’t force your religion down my throat I will not force mine down yours.
Christians imagine they are better than everyone else and know better than everyone else, so claim this truce should not apply to them. I hope everyone tells these arrogant SOBs (Son Of a Bitchs) where to get off. You can’t both claim to support the constitution and to be exempt from it. Christians who demand to be exempt are traitors. They all swore allegiance to the constitution.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Separation of Church and State
Religious extremists justify violating the constitutional principle of separation of church and state and trying to impose their sect’s views on everyone in public schools and through law because they see the vacuum of no particular religion as a particularly hated religion. It has control and they want to wrest it away.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Separation of Church And State
The US Constitution forbids a state religion. It forbids the state from promoting one religion over another. It forbids religious tests for office. Christians chafe against this. It interferes with their god-given right to force their religion on others. However, it was designed for their benefit. In other countries, the majority sect seeks to impose itself on everyone and to arrange special privilege for itself. The United States supports a bewildering array of types of religion. The wall of separation of church and state has been good to religion.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
Separation of Church and State Benefits Churches
Americans imagine separation of church and state is for the benefit of atheists, to prevent Christians from forcing their religion on them. It is also for preventing a radical Christian sect from using the state (e.g. schools) to indoctrinate all children with their eccentric ideas, e.g. Good News clubs and their strange idea genocide is a good thing. Separation was invented even before the notion of atheism.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
There is a CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) radio program called Tapestry to celebrate woo and jeer at rationality. The guests prefer miraculous over mundane explanations. For example, they would prefer the explanation god manifests tears on statues to the one that there was a leaking toilet on the floor above. (In India a skeptic was arrested for pointing out the leaky toilet and warning against drinking the tears.)
Why do they do the prefer woo?
- The miraculous is more thrilling.
- They can just make stuff up, and feel they are superior the world’s greatest scientists.
- They don’t have to deal with the world as it is. They can construct it as they please.
- To deny delusional experiences clearly caused by mental imbalance.
- Because they do not realize the power of the mind to generate a subjective experience even when it is working perfectly normally.
The CBC is a government organisation. As such, it should honour the separation of church and state. It should not be broadcasting propaganda for particular religions or sects.~ Roedy (1948-02-04 age:70)
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