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Grace Or Works

Here is an email I received in response to one of my essays.

Grace Or Works

John : : 2003-10-19

First, I’d like to say thank you for all the time you’ve spent sharing your Java knowledge. It’s helped me quite a bit over the years.

Thanks. I love the way computers magnify my ability to help others. Once I answer a question of one person, it is recorded to help any one else with a similar problem and Google helps them find my original answer.

On to Christianity: it seems to me that your take on Christianity is largely based on people who say they are Christians. One problem with large (political) Christian groups is that they are trying to force a version of morality down non-believer’s throats. This is wrong. I do not believe abortion is right. But, I don’t expect those with different beliefs to agree with me. The Christian message is one of faith, hope and love, with love being the greatest of these. Once a person accepts Christ, the change in behavior comes naturally. Does that mean Christians are better? Absolutely not. No matter how great or small a sin is, just one is enought to keep you away from being with God. Therefore, they should not be judgemental.

It is odd that Kristians (what I call these phony Christians) disagree with Jesus even more than non-Christians. Kristians are usually most in favour of the death penalty, of harsh revenge, of treating outcasts of society harshly, of taking from the poor to give to the rich, of letting the sick fend for themselves etc. As I have said many times, my goal is either to get these hypocrites to see what they are doing and drop the sheep-clothing camouflage they have for their evil, dropping all superstition, or failing that, convert them into true Christians.

I believe there is a time that every person will stand before God for the final judgement. But it is not our works — good or bad that are to be judged. It will be whether you have accepted the wonderful gift that God has given us… sending His son to die for us, paying for our sins. Those who have not accepted Christ will really get what they’ve always wanted… to have God absent in there life. This is a hell. To be in the presence of God is the greatest gift.

This is one of the silliest things I have ever heard. First Jesus tells quite clearly this is not so in
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
and in case you did not get it, he repeats himself in
Luke 13:25-27
When once the master of the house is risen up and hath shut to the door and ye begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

and yet again in
Matthew 13:41 and 7:21-23
Not eveyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Further, if the Christian God is the real creator of the universe, he is god of the entire universe, not just of some corner of one insignificant little planet of the edge of an insignificant little galaxy. Even on that planet, many people have never even heard of Jesus. How could knowing about and accepting Jesus be a criterion, unless God plays extreme favouritism? That is such a pinched, parochial and insulting thing to say about the creator of the universe.

All objective evidence points to the Bible being mostly false. It is not even historically accurate much less scientifically accurate. See my Noah essay. The only thing supporting Christianity is one book of uncertain authorship. There are only three classes of people who could possibly believe such a cock and bull fairy story. The pathetically gullible, idiots and those indoctrinated from birth. What has God got against everyone else that almost guarantees they will fail, no matter how good their works? Why would he care which particular myth of the thousands available the believes? What is so virtuous about picking Christianity above some other myth less in conflict with fact? I can see God caring about works or love, but what why would gullibility be the overriding virtue?

You are certainly not the first one to fall for this all-you-need-is-faith lie. It is a Satanic trap for the unwary, to make them think the road to heaven is easy. It is a trick to lead people astray, to make them complacent. False prophets made this up. Otherwise, what hope would they have?

Have you ever read a book by C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity? Whether or not someone is a Christian, they will enjoy this book. It makes you think.

I may have many years ago. Ironically, my teenage rebellion consisted of secretly visiting churches, something forbidden by my mother. In the end though, I could not find any Christian who could give any reasons for their beliefs. They simply inherited them from their parents without examining them logically. They just felt right.

Finally, I sincerely hope you are not just posting the angry Christian emails you receive. Because that anger is not representative of God.

Mostly people write only when they are angry. Usually they are angry because they have misinterpreted what I said. Kristianity is not representative of God. What people keep telling me is that if I reject Kristianity, I am rejecting God. I think the very opposite. If you embrace Kristianity you are flagrantly violating the clear messages from Jesus in the Bible. You are also rejecting the behaviours most of us imagine God would want from us: love, kindness, gentleness and tolerance.

Grace or Works : John : :2003-10-21

Thanks for your reply. Your response was thoughtful. Based on your response, I need to clarify my statement about good works not being the key to salvation. We cannot be perfect. The verses you quote support my view. You may only know God through Jesus, otherwise, you are not with God. Our works are as filthy rags to God ( Isaiah 64:6) But we are all as an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I read that to mean your deeds are of no lasting importance in the grand scheme of things, but your works are what you are judged by. You are kidding yourself. You are twisting the words of your own bible.

We can interpret things differently… but I don’t want to get into calling each other silly. Like you, I believe rejecting Jesus does not necessarily mean you are intentionally rejecting God. However, I believe that Jesus is the only road to God.

That smugness, that patronising superiority is what makes you Kristians both so insufferable and so ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing special about the Christian religion to recommend it above any other. It has no substantiation in history or scientific fact. The bible is out and out wrong every single place it can be tested. You are like children bragging your dad can beat up any other dad in the universe, when your dad is just an ordinary man. You cannot even claim Christianity is superior in the effect it has on people. It makes more monsters than saints. Did the Buddhist ever have an institution comparable to the Inquisition or the Salem witch trails? Compare the Buddhist Dalai Lama with the meddling old busybody the Pope in Rome. There in no contest who is more saintly. Compare the strength of the faith of the average Muslim with the average Christian. There is no contest. For Christians, God is peripheral. You are puffed with pride in your religion with no reason at all for it. It is as silly as thinking God favours one sports team over another.

Those searching for God will not find him otherwise. Now, a belief is a belief and contrary to what the majority of people seem to believe, it is possible for one way to be right and all others to be wrong. We can argue about which one is right.

I’ve found that a healthy debate on politics or religion is fun and can be educational, but seldom changes anyone’s beliefs. So, except for what I said above… trying to clarify my earlier statement, I’ll stop it. From what little I know about you, you sound like a great guy. It’s a pleasure to email you personally because of all the help and knowledge you’ve given me. Thanks!

I have to give you credit. You are remarkably polite. You are truly following Jesus’s request to turn the other cheek. Sounds like you are walking the walk even if you believe it is not that important.

Insults : John : : 2003-11-03

Your responses seem to be made up largely by personal insults and attacks.

Of course! I consider Kristianity to be a force for evil just like Nazism and the KKK (Klu Klux Klan). Would you expect me to treat the statements from Kristians with phony respect? I think you and your ilk are both crazy and dangerous. You need to be deprogrammed of your delusions. The last thing you need is to have your delusions treated with exaggerated respect. That would just encourage you to hold onto them. You need to be hooted at.

If you don’t realize this, read our dialog from an objective point of view. You have made it clear that you despise Christians, rather than merely disagreeing with them.

You got it. Kristianity is evil. It is not merely a matter of different strokes for different folks. Keep in mind Kristians like you have been killing gay people like me for centuries. Kristians are the main folk trying to hold that and other silly superstitions in place. Despite your amiable exterior, you are at heart a bigoted, ignorant, Kristian who believes in his own inherent superiority with an exclusive handle on truth.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood the intent of this message board. If your purpose for maintaining it is to get a rise out of people instead of pure debate, you’re doing a good job. You may want to try something that works for me… just relax. If it’s any consession, I’m not crazy about the moral majority groups either. At the least, we have that in common. Take care of yourself.

The website is a soapbox where I tilt at the evils of the world. Kristianty is one of them. I post stuff from Kristians mainly to point out to others what raving lunatics they are and hence why Kristianity should be discouraged rather than encouraged by the state.

Perhaps a soft sell would get further, but it would be dishonest. I find Kristianity utterly loathsome. Its practitioners are so smug, self-righteous, parochial and stupid I feel like slapping them senseless.

I believe that were Jesus around today, he too would take an equally dim view of modern Kristianity. It is almost the exact opposite of everything he taught. He was not polite to hypocrites either.

The End :John 03 Nov 2003

Ok Roedy. This will be it. Do you not see the circular reasoning going on here? One reason you loathe Christians is because they believe that being gay is wrong. How is that different than Christians loathing you because you believe Christians are wrong? Roedy, I don’t loathe you because you are gay. I don’t loathe you. I love you. Enough said Roedy. Take care.

What a typically Kristian thing to do, to fabricate a straw man quotation. What I did say was that Kristians like you have been killing gay people like me for centuries.

I don’t mind Kristians thinking that being gay is wicked or tormenting themselves if they are gay. What I object to is their insistence on making life miserable for gay people by denying them civil rights. But my complaint with you personally is not about gay tolerance, it is your outrageous chauvinism. You are so ruddy proud of your shitty religion that has a history of cruelty, violence, and superstition. It has created so much misery and squashed so much joy. It continues to this day encouraging destruction of the environment and overpopulation.

It has almost nothing to recommend it. Nearly all its stories are false. Yet you hold onto it out of sentimental attachment and have the temerity to suggest that rag tag bag of contradictory legends is the only way to God. God is supposedely about truth. Christianity’s key book is demonstrably false. That rules out Christianity/Kristianity as the road to God.

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